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Restoring Broken Relationships with your Children- Margy Tripp Pt. 2 – Shepherd Press Podcast
Transcript
Anthony Selvaggio: Welcome once again to the Shepherd Press podcast. I am your host Anthony Russo, and it’s great to be with you today. Today, I’m talking with Anthony Salvaggio. Anthony is a pastor, author, lecturer, conference speaker, and former practicing attorney. He joins me to talk about one of his many books, A Proverbs Driven Life: Timeless Wisdom for Your Words, Work, Wealth, and Relationships.
Prior to serving in his current role as pastor of the Rochester Christian Reformed Church in Rochester, New York, Anthony also served as pastor of the College Hill Reformed Presbyterian church in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania. Hello, and welcome to the show, Anthony.
Anthony Selvaggio: Hello, thank you for having me on.
Anthony Selvaggio: It’s a pleasure. Thanks for being here. Let’s dive right in and talk about Proverbs from a big picture point of view. What is a ‘Proverbs Driven Life’ and why is it important?
Anthony Selvaggio: I love how you started that and using that image of the big picture view, because that is exactly what Proverbs is. Certainly, the Bible in every way speaks to the universal experience of human nature, human needs, salvation. But particularly the book of Proverbs, it is meant to be a book that speaks about something that all humans will benefit from, and that’s wisdom. It’s a book that teaches us how to live in the land, how to prosper, how to flourish in the land, and how to choose the way of wisdom. It even draws from other cultures. There’s wisdom drawn in, into this inspired Word of God from other places.
It’s very much a universal book that does give us the big picture of the human life and it’s given to us so that we can follow the way of wisdom, which leads to life. It leads to Jesus. It leads to salvation. I don’t want to reduce this book as mere equations, that you do X and Y, and you get Z.
That’s not what it is. It is a pattern of life that God is giving us because he’s a loving father. He’s saying here’s how to live well in the land that I’ve called you to live in.
Anthony Russo: That comes through very clearly in the book, by the way, it does not come across at all as a series of life principles to live by. In fact, that’s one of the things I noticed right away in the early part of the book. You say the goal of Proverbs is not finding earthly prosperity or even wisdom itself.
The goal of Proverbs, is to grow ever closer to the God who is wisdom.
Anthony Selvaggio: It’s to lead us to Christ, who is, by the way, as scripture reveals to us, that in Christ Jesus are first he’s referred to as the wisdom from God. He is the embodiment of wisdom, and in him are hidden all treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and so, ultimately the path of Proverbs is, leads us to Jesus and salvation.
Anthony Russo: Amen. The greater than Solomon.
Anthony Selvaggio: Yes.
Anthony Russo: In that initial section of the book, mentioned two sets of contrasts. One is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. You say wisdom is the ability to make good decisions based on knowledge, then act on those decisions in a way that’s effective and makes a difference. And information is about facts and knowledge. Talk a little bit about that.
Anthony Selvaggio: actually the book was originally written in 2008 and you know that the iPhone comes out in 2007 and I was already seeing and thinking about the impact of the whole idea of an internet world, of a social media world, and all of these things happening where we have so much access to information, to bits, and, these kind of units of information, but we seem to be unable to make good decisions.
One of the key distinctions, I think and the importance of Proverbs is it isn’t just knowledge, it’s trying to help you to apply God’s word, God’s way to actual skillful living in these various spheres of life, whether it’s your friendships, your relationships, to how you use your speech, how you take care of your finances, very practical stuff, how you live in your marriage.
I think that’s the key distinction. We have a lot of knowledge, bits of information, a constant kind of thing. And we’re seeing that in our culture that increases in information, increases in knowledge do not lead necessarily to better decision making, better lives. And so wisdom comes into play.
And this is particularly with Proverbs through God’s Word, that type of godly wisdom helps us to live skillfully and effectively amidst a lot of noise and bits of information. So I give an example, one time I tried to do plumbing in my house and I had all the knowledge of how everything worked, I watched the YouTube video and I got the, plumbing guide or whatever.
But I couldn’t like skillfully do it, when it came back to actually doing the work and that’s what Proverbs is a little bit of the rubber meets the road of life. You become skillful as a plumber because you’ve done this multiple times and you get better at it.
I think that’s true with what Proverbs is offering us as we apply the principles of Proverbs to life. We learn this skill I think of wisdom as that skillful application of knowledge to life.
Anthony Russo: I can see that. That’s really helpful. And interestingly, you’ve taken that idea of wisdom being applied to knowledge, you also make a contrast between wisdom and folly, noting that our only real choices in life are between wisdom and folly.
Anthony Selvaggio: Indeed. And you see that in multiple places. Obviously, it is in Proverbs over and over again. You see it in the first Psalm, right? Psalm number one. The other is the way of the wicked and there is the way of the righteous. You can see it in the Gospel itself. Like ultimately the most important decision you can make in life is whether you’re going to follow Jesus Christ who is the way of wisdom, the way of salvation or reject him and to reject him as the ultimate folly.
I mean, you know, terrible, eternal consequences, that decision, but that is They’re exactly right that these two things are contrasted in Scripture, wisdom and folly, wisdom and foolishness, and ultimately, that boils right down to the most important central decision we can make in our lives, and that’s whether to follow Christ or not.
Anthony Russo: As I’m hearing you explain that and unpack that, I’m thinking, in my own life, if only I would remember this so that I come to a point of doing something, I might stop and go, wait a minute, is this going to be wisdom in this moment or folly? Cause I only have two reactions here, two choices.
Just the way you brought that out, I thought was just helpful.
Anthony Selvaggio: I do think that’s important. Now, as I say that, I’d want to nuance that too, because going back to that avoiding of the equation idea of Proverbs. A perfect example, Proverbs 26:3 through 5. Sometimes people use it to say, “Oh, the Bible contradicts itself.”
Because in verse 4 it says, “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.” And then verse 5 says, “Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.” And people say, “Oh, look, the Bible contradicts itself. Sometimes you’re supposed to answer, sometimes you’re not.
But really what it’s saying, this is what wisdom is, this is the skill of it all, is knowing when to answer a fool according to his folly and when not to. And that plays out in life. Sometimes you’re in an argument, you’re talking with somebody, and they’re unwilling to listen and to speak more is not worth it and can lead you even into bad situations. But then there are times where someone is speaking folly. Yeah, and you should correct them and speak that word.
Wisdom comes in is knowing when to do those things. The book doesn’t give you all the answers. It requires you to use the brain that God gave you, the inspiration of the Holy spirit, the totality of scriptures. And to try to apply that wisdom, that knowledge, and wisdom to your life.
Anthony Russo: I’m glad you brought up Proverbs 26 and how you use that as an example, because that was really one of the areas I was going to get into next is, the section where you’re applying proverbs to our words. And that is in fact, one of the things that you brought out in the book is that part of wisdom is knowing when not to say anything.
And in that section, you say that wise or biblical words have three qualities. They are thoughtful, they are timely, and they are true. And what you just talked about was part of that timeliness of it all. What are some ways a Christian can be a wise Christian able to give a thoughtful, timely, and true word to others?
Anthony Selvaggio: I think this is such an important thing obviously in the time of proverbs was related to our speech. In our world this extends to our communications. Whether it’s posting on a social media site, whether it’s writing an email; all of this, I think this is so vitally important today, this is timeless in its wisdom.
This makes sense in an internet world. We need this information. And by the way, I will say too that this is the chapter my wife most reminds me of; these three principles about thoughtful, timely, and truthful, usually it’s the thoughtful and timely, mostly the timely is where I make, the mistake.
And so let’s talk about that a little bit, but like timeliness, when to speak that word I guess I’d say from the very beginning, the entire bias of Proverbs is silence. That’s the default place. That’s usually the place of wisdom. There’s a great proverb about that in Proverbs 17: 27 and 28.
A man of knowledge uses words with restraint. A man of understanding is even tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent and discerning if he holds his tongue. One of the ways to be perceived as wise, and actually to be wise, is to show restraint in speech. And of course, this comes out in James 2 in the New Testament and that type of thing.
But timeliness is to ask yourself the question, “Is this the right moment to speak that word?” It’s when you write that email, and you’re upset about something, and you have it all written and you want to hit that send button. So many people will say sleep on it. This the right moment or you’re in a very sensitive situation and maybe you hold your tongue and let this play out and then speak.
The time of this is so important. And then obviously the importance of speaking truth, and we are living in the age of lies and it’s so easy to fall into that and to be deceived by that. So just an accuracy in how we speak and we want to be able to do that. There’s a great proverb that talks about our words, Proverbs 25: 11, like apples of gold and settings of silver is a ruling rightly given or a word rightly given.
Like if you can craft your speech, you can really heal, and you can really help people. And of course, as a pastor I think about this all the time I want to set those you know those apples of gold and a setting of silver in the sense that I want to preach that way. Right, the power of speech how God uses the word.
So just thinking about becoming a craftsperson with regard to our speech and I think those three principles to think about when you’re speaking. One, default to silence. Is this the right time to speak this? Is this a thoughtful, helpful? Is this going to lead to good flourishing of this person, a correction for them? And is what I’m saying true? I think those three principles still work for me all the time, even though I often violate them still.
Anthony Russo: I understand that. One of the other sections you have in the book is about our work. And again, The Lord is so kind to give us instruction for what is such a large part of our lives. And in that section, you give reminders of familiar things that for the Christian, there is no difference between the and the secular, and the importance of rest.
And then you have an interesting insight here that I’d like to share with our listeners about Christians and workaholism, which I thought was a very interesting little nugget of wisdom that you put in there. You say, “Today, I believe Christians are actually more likely to become workaholics than they are sluggards, simply because the idolatry of workaholism is more socially respectable.”
In fact, it is so widely praised that many Christians don’t even consider it a sin. And then you go on to make the point that Christian answer to workaholism is the sovereignty of God. And you say, “in the final analysis, we can stop working and rest because God is sovereign.” Would you talk about that a bit for listeners? How does the sovereignty of God help us?
Anthony Selvaggio: It’s so interesting to hear you, you know, like would I write that differently in 2024 post COVID after the great resignation, remote work, all these types of things? I think it does and I guess it really hits me as a pastor because I think there is an idolatry of self-importance in how hard one works. I mean, the whole Sabbath principle is the idea that this is God’s world, He made it, and we are to follow His pattern, and rest is built on that. In that rest is trust. You rest in Christ; you rest in the finished work of God and he who began a good work and He will complete it.
And that whole sense of, yeah, that’s where that sovereignty comes in and not trying to take to yourself, so much. It is an equal sin, but it is one, I think in the point I was trying to make is often, we treat working much as a virtue rather than a vice. It can destroy families. It can lead you to make poor decisions.
Perhaps I would also, remember to be industrious, and there’s certainly an admonition, and it’s also in the New Testament about, the lack of working and industry leads to poverty. And I recognize that the world is a complicated place and people experience poverty for a variety of reasons. But it still holds true that one of those reasons is a failure to work hard and to plan. And that’s when Proverbs says look to the ant saying, here’s one who’s preparing and working. And that’s really a call for us.
Anthony Russo: That’s again, just so helpful. One of the other sections is the chapter about marriage. you bring the reader to a familiar chapter. Of course, Proverbs 31, but you really sum it up with the phrase noble character, in fact, you say “Proverbs 31 is not a universal checklist or standard for godliness in women, something you either attain or you don’t, rather what we find in these verses that are the kind of things that women with godly character will do.
These are some of the general areas they will focus on seeking to live wisely by being productive and responsible stewards of their time and talents and opportunities. And again, then you sum it up with the idea that the Proverbs 31 woman is a woman of noble character. And as I was reading that, I thought, what a gracious word for ladies, because oftentimes I think ladies probably feel a bit of pressure. They hear it so often, but the way you explain it and say that it’s really about noble character, it’s not trying to do all of those things I thought [it] was a helpful word.
Anthony Selvaggio: Yeah, I shudder to speak about Proverbs 31 for that very reason. But one of the things I’d say, obviously the book of Proverbs is written in a male voice. It’s father to son, right? It’s this wisdom given. When it talks about marriage, it’s talking about finding a wife. And Wisdom itself and I guess I would say herself because wisdom is personified in a female embodiment this woman here is in many ways like an epitome of what wisdom looks like. I’m not sure, you go out looking for the Proverbs 31 woman, but you’re looking for a person who has that type of compilation of character. And it’s true for I’d say to a woman looking for a husband you want a husband of noble character, this is what Proverbs says and believe me, as a pastor, I know this.
Because it talks about when you choose poorly, when you choose folly in marriage, and why do people do that? This is how relevant this book is Proverbs 31: 30 says “Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.” And I think you could swap that around, right?
But the idea is like, Oh, sometimes people get married. Now, this is a good-looking person, or this is a very charming person. They make me laugh or whatever, without thinking deeply about the core character of the person, their virtue. One of the things Proverbs speaks very frankly about is, if you choose poorly in marriage, it’s a lot of distress to your life and it could impact you financially, but also just on a psychological emotional level. And this often comes through in Proverbs like this one, that again, you can do this for both husbands and wives. Proverbs 12: 4 “but a disgraceful wife is like decay in the bones.”
Proverbs 27:15, “A quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping on a rainy day.” So it’s this idea if you marry poorly as a man or a woman it’s this thing that’s actually decaying your bones or you know is this constant thing you’re dealing with because the person lives with you under the same roof. You know as I counsel a lot, and particularly premarital counseling, you really want to think about this, and you really want to emphasize that and get to that, because, charm and beauty are, deceptive and fleeting, but a noble character is something that endures throughout a marriage, and really needs to be at the core.
Anthony Russo: I remember as you were talking about the importance of choosing a spouse or choosing a mate, one of the bits of wisdom that you shared in the book was threefold wisdom of seek Christ, seek character and seek counsel. So, I just throw that out there for those who are listening and who maybe are in that stage of life where they’re not yet married or they’re not yet engaged and not yet dating or whatever.
And they’re looking and seeking the Lord. So those are three things that you bring out in the book, seek Christ, seek character, and seek counsel.
Anthony Selvaggio: and I would add today, what I think, a concern that maybe I didn’t have in 2008, is the idea that finding a noble spouse, is a wonderful, amazing thing. And I say that because in some ways the culture has turned against marriage in general, young people are just delaying marriage significantly. I think that’s a real negative. I think marriage, when you choose the right partner, is wonderfully sanctifying, it helps you grow. “It’s iron sharpening iron” idea. My wife, she has so helped me, and the Lord has used her in amazing ways.
And there’s also just practical things, which is Proverbs is practical about the order of a household the kind of stability financially, whatever. The order, and just living, and doing the chores, and duties of life, and making things function. Being together, being married, finding that noble spouse is a wonderful blessing. And Proverbs encourages you to find it.There’s a blessedness and singleness. Paul speaks about it. I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush, but, there’s something special about finding that spouse.
Anthony Russo: Agreed. Agreed. I’m very thankful for my wife. She’s a godly woman. And I tell people all the time that really her only flaw is she has poor taste in men.
Anthony Selvaggio: Ha ha ha.
Anthony Russo: One of the things that you mentioned is, since we’ve seemed to kind of land in this marriage chapter; I really appreciated also the word of grace that you gave, your pastoral word, if I could put it that way. You say, “To all of those who have felt the sting of a marriage gone awry, know that Jesus will respond to you as he did to the woman at the well.”
He will hear your confession, call you to repentance and change, and offer you afresh, the living waters only he can give. Again, I just appreciated your pastoral word there for those who have gone through marital difficulties.
Anthony Selvaggio: Yes. Yeah, and I sit here as an older pastor now and there’s so much of just general brokenness, particularly in the areas of our relationships and, boy, we’re struggling through a lot of stuff and it gets heavier every year. But that message of forgiveness, restoration, renewal, hope in Jesus for everyone. I wish there wasn’t so much brokenness, I would say that. But I’m glad that there’s one who mends the broken and gives hope.
Anthony Russo: Amen to that. So, we talked about Proverbs and how it points to Christ and, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. And then you mentioned it at the end of the book. The reward at the end of our maze is the glorious privilege of knowing Christ and the power of his resurrection.
The end of wisdom is God himself. And again, I just thought that was just a glorious reminder for all of us.
Anthony Selvaggio: Yeah, our God is amazing. It is that wonderful portrait of a loving father. He is wisdom. He’s the giver of wisdom James talks about this, He’s the way of wisdom. I mean you think about Jesus as a wisdom teacher, right? He uses parables, he blows the minds of people he’s grows in wisdom and stature he’s this embodiment wisdom.
And ultimately, he’s wisdom calling us, and to pursue him is to pursue wisdom and to end up really experiencing, knowing eternally the God of all wisdom.
The path of wisdom is a wonderful path to follow in your life. It doesn’t mean you’ll avoid suffering. I always say the book of Job should be read in one hand along with the book of Proverbs. Because Job was a righteous man. He really was, and not perfect; he suffered greatly. Sometimes perhaps he was, wondering, and he did wonder “why is this happening?” So I always think we should temper those things.
But the overall pursuit of wisdom leads to Christ, leads to God, leads to salvation, and I would just invite, encourage, and welcome people to pursue that path of wisdom that’s set forth in Proverbs, but it just like blossoms in powerful ways in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Anthony Russo: Amen. Absolutely. Well, Anthony Selvaggio, author of A Proverbs Driven Life: Timeless Wisdom for Your Words, Work, Wealth, and Relationships. It has been a pleasure to have you on and thank you so much for joining us today and the Lord bless you.
Anthony Selvaggio: I have really enjoyed it and the Lord bless you as well.